Kick It!! My LI125 project

[Roger Hudnut 13]

Hello fellow club members.  My name is Roger.  I dont think that I've officially introduced myself yet.  I know I have not posted anything about my LI125.

In September of 2016 I picked up my LI125.  Almost 2 years to the day and I'm finally at a point where I can begin to work on it.  In that two years I converted a carport into functioning shop, got my Lambretta licensed and also completed a heap of work on my 1964 Chevy C10 pickup project which filled just about every square inch of space in that carport.  Not to mention the truck took most of my spare money too.  But the 64 project is complete.  Its been kicked outdoors and the scooter now has plenty of elbow room.

LI125-001 by R H, on Flickr

 

LI125-002 by R H, on Flickr

(The Lambretta sitting beside my old 62 Ranchero, which sold to a dude in Germany!!)

The motor & transmission need some help.  Some of the obvious things are, broken fins on the fly wheel, scored cylinder walls and badly scratched piston.  The clutch body was grinding away on the kick start arm too.  All the cables are toast and some of the electrical needs to be reworked.  The tins are in good shape.  There are some lumps here and there, but they are not rusted or missing.

LI125-007 by R H, on Flickr

LI125-010 by R H, on Flickr

LI125-012 by R H, on Flickr

LI125-020 by R H, on Flickr

LI125-021 by R H, on Flickr

I joined the LCUSA in order to meet like minded folks, soak up some knowledge and gain some helpful hints on how to go about building this great machine.  I'm also very interested in visiting the Isle of Man any time of the year, but specifically during a motorcycle / scootering event.  And the Isle of Wight, Brighton and the Goodwood Revival would be top of my list too.  I'm into Ska and Northern Soul for those of you who dig the vintage scene.

My goal is to make a British styled scooter that looks like it was built in the early 80's.  I have much to learn and will probably change my mind as things proceed.  But that's the general goal.  As for the motor.  I'm open to bumping up the power, but would like to keep things simple and reliable first and foremost.  

I'll post updates when they happen.  

Thanks for looking.  

Rog.

[BrooklynPete 156]

Welcome to the club . Looking forward  to seeing your progress.

Like the Falcon you have there:)

 

[Roger Hudnut 13]

2 hours ago, BrooklynPete said:

Welcome to the club . Looking forward  to seeing your progress.

Like the Falcon you have there:)

 

Thanks Brooklyn Pete.  I just discovered that my 125 has LI-150 gear set and the barrel/piston are 175CC.  So I'm pretty  stoked.

As for the Ranchero.  Its living in Stuttgart Germany now.  I purchased it years ago as a rusty beach bum ride.  It went from a flat black rust heap to the beautiful Lime green flake & white machine you see in that pic.  I enjoyed it quite a bit, but needed to move on.  An auto exporter got in touch with me and the next thing I knew the car was headed for Germany.  I'm sort of pissed off because my car made to the European continent before I did!!!!  hahaah  Who knows, maybe I'll bump into it when I visit.  

I'll post more pics of my Lammy build as things develop.

Cheers.

a003 by R H, on Flickr

For a few more pics on The Cursed Tiki you can visit my Flickr folder  https://flic.kr/s/aHskEiASr8

[Roger Hudnut 13]

UPDATE:

I am fortunate enough to have a good friend who happens to have all the tools needed to tear down and build up a Lambretta motor.  My tool box will be properly outfitted someday.  So we tore my motor down and learned some good things.

1. My motor is not stock.
      - It has a LI-150 gear set.
      - It has a large piston and barrel.

IMG_20180913_193625831_HDR by R H, on Flickr

IMG_20180913_193521168 by R H, on Flickr

I'm a bit puzzled.  I think that this is a 175cc, but I cant find 63.3mm pistons anywhere.  

So I put a question out there to you readers.  What piston set do I need to order??

As for the bore, it feels great to the touch.  I'll take it down and have a hone job.  See what it looks like after that.  I know I need a piston, but was hopping I might be able to salvage the barrel. 

And it looks like my barrel is from West Coast Lambretta Works from 1999.

IMG_20180913_193738870 by R H, on Flickr

And here are a few pics of my piston top, head details and cylinder walls.

IMG_20180909_154459848_HDR by R H, on Flickr

IMG_20180913_193700010_HDR by R H, on Flickr

IMG_20180913_193720841 by R H, on Flickr

IMG_20180913_193727301 by R H, on Flickr

IMG_20180913_193753560 by R H, on Flickr

IMG_20180913_193812668 by R H, on Flickr

IMG_20180913_193829431 by R H, on Flickr

IMG_20180913_193838060 by R H, on Flickr

Cheers.

[charliefentonsboy 65]

Its a WCLW 190 conversion of a stock 150 cylinder and head. The piston is a Wiseco Suzuki TS185 std piston @ 64.00mm (176M06400) easily available online.

You may want to have the clearance checked and possibly look at the next size rebore.

[dirtyhandslopez 605]

Check barrel and crank also. If it was running a standard crank, the barrel would have been cut top and bottom. If it was running a long conrod, the cylinder wouldn't have been cut and it  may have had a cylinder base packer.

Looking at top of cylinder picture, it has not been cut.

 

[Bjjpdx 22]

Look forward to meeting you, Love the colors on that!! You're in Portland?

[Roger Hudnut 13]

On 9/14/2018 at 6:15 AM, charliefentonsboy said:

Its a WCLW 190 conversion of a stock 150 cylinder and head. The piston is a Wiseco Suzuki TS185 std piston @ 64.00mm (176M06400) easily available online.

You may want to have the clearance checked and possibly look at the next size rebore.

Now that's what I'm talking about!!! Nice info Charliefentonsboy!!  Thank you for the assistance!  ? ?

[Roger Hudnut 13]

On 9/14/2018 at 12:44 PM, dirtyhandslopez said:

Check barrel and crank also. If it was running a standard crank, the barrel would have been cut top and bottom. If it was running a long conrod, the cylinder wouldn't have been cut and it  may have had a cylinder base packer.

Looking at top of cylinder picture, it has not been cut.

 

I will post some more technical measurments here in just a second.  Thank you for your reply and knowledge!!! ??

[Roger Hudnut 13]

11 hours ago, Bjjpdx said:

Look forward to meeting you, Love the colors on that!! You're in Portland?

Hey man.  Cheers.  Yes I'm in outer SE. Near Rockwood.  Let me know of any scooter gigs and I'll see if I can fit it in.  Cheers ?

[Roger Hudnut 13]

UPDATE: 9/25/18

First off, I'll share some measurements with you.  These might inform the all knowing Lambretta guru's.

Outer diameter of barrel, measured between the 3rd and 4th fins - 70.20mm

Piston outer diameter measures - 63.34mm

Piston ring gap:
       Measured at the top of the cylinder - .45mm feeler gauge
       Measured at bottom of the cylinder - .48mm feeler gauge

Piston ring thickness - .96mm

Piston to cylinder wall gap - .20mm feeler gauge was the thickest I could fit

If you would like to question how I made these measurements or have suggestions one how I can get more accurate measurements, please let me know. 

I'll post some pics of progress soon.

 

[Roger Hudnut 13]

Lot of progress has been made so far.

IMG_20180916_111001668 by R H, on Flickr

I'm fortunate enough to live near Rudy.  He helped me break down my motor.  When we tore into it, I got to see his kick ass motor mount.  Once I got home I built something similar.  This is what it looks like (above).

IMG_20180916_110710408 by R H, on Flickr

IMG_20180916_110655248 by R H, on Flickr

This thing allows a person to safely support the motor and spin it 360.  I'm sure that most of you have this tool already.  but for thoes who dont, It is an easy build if you have a welder and access to some steel.

IMG_20180916_111123289 by R H, on Flickr

Full rotation.

IMG_20180916_110559702 by R H, on Flickr

IMG_20180916_110543609 by R H, on Flickr

IMG_20180916_110529521 by R H, on Flickr

IMG_20180916_110513357 by R H, on Flickr

And with that I was able to clean the motor good.

IMG_20180916_134722121 by R H, on Flickr

IMG_20180916_134740148 by R H, on Flickr

I'll share some technical pics next. 

Cheers.

[Roger Hudnut 13]

First off, I dont know how to properly measure things.  Either I dont have the right tools or I dont have the right technique. 

What is the best way to measure the connecting rod??

IMG_20180916_115936700 by R H, on Flickr

IMG_20180916_120058237 by R H, on Flickr

I did a quick hone job (before giving you the measurements above).  The cylinder scratches almost vanished.  There are a few which have remained.  What do you think, is this acceptable or should I have the barrel bored to the next size up??

IMG_20180919_182640989 by R H, on Flickr

IMG_20180919_182625925 by R H, on Flickr

IMG_20180919_182618194 by R H, on Flickr

Also, I found out why my kick start shaft was rubbing on my clutch.  The common problem, a snap right and bushing missing from the end of the shaft.

IMG_20180919_193522794 by R H, on Flickr

Thus allowing the shaft to move inward and rub on the clutch.

IMG_20180919_193613615 by R H, on Flickr

And this movement means that the kick start lever then scuffs the chain case on it's way back to is resting space.

IMG_20180919_193623744 by R H, on Flickr

And this little guy has had it.  

IMG_20180919_195325646 by R H, on Flickr

That is all that I have to post today.

Thanks again for following along and posting your helpful hints and knowledge.  

Cheers. ?

[baronvonmike 215]

Nice MIG work.  Looks like you're headed in the right direction.  I'd run it as is, but that's me.

[Roger Hudnut 13]

3 minutes ago, baronvonmike said:

Nice MIG work.  Looks like you're headed in the right direction.  I'd run it as is, but that's me.

Kind of what i was thinking.  I dont think it looks that bad.  But I've never built a 2 stroke, so that's why I'm sharing the good & bad here.  Best to get many opinions.  Cheers ?

[Bjjpdx 22]

Looking good!

 

[Mike Anhalt 1,709]

13 hours ago, Roger Hudnut said:

Kind of what i was thinking.  I dont think it looks that bad.  But I've never built a 2 stroke, so that's why I'm sharing the good & bad here.  Best to get many opinions.  Cheers ?

From the photo the cylinder looks like it should be good. You need to measure the piston to cylinder clearance correctly with micrometers (in and out). The calipers will get you close but are not really the best way to do it. Measure right above the exhaust port and at 90 to the piston wrist pin. Ideally you wan't .0035" clearance between the two surfaces but since both are used and the cylinder has a fresh home you'll more likely than not see something around .005" on up. Maybe get new rings just to be good. Measuring with feeler gauges are good for shim float and setting points.

The case cover has a bushing that can be pressed back in to place and that should fix the kick shaft placement. Use a new shim and C clip.

 

The rest of it looks good and I like your attention to detail. Just make sure that top end is super clean before assembly.

 

Who ever built that top end last time needs to ease up on the RTV. It's all over the piston. That can't be good for any thing

 

[Roger Hudnut 13]

9 hours ago, Mike Anhalt said:

From the photo the cylinder looks like it should be good. You need to measure the piston to cylinder clearance correctly with micrometers (in and out). The calipers will get you close but are not really the best way to do it. Measure right above the exhaust port and at 90 to the piston wrist pin. Ideally you wan't .0035" clearance between the two surfaces but since both are used and the cylinder has a fresh home you'll more likely than not see something around .005" on up. Maybe get new rings just to be good. Measuring with feeler gauges are good for shim float and setting points.

The case cover has a bushing that can be pressed back in to place and that should fix the kick shaft placement. Use a new shim and C clip.

 

The rest of it looks good and I like your attention to detail. Just make sure that top end is super clean before assembly.

 

Who ever built that top end last time needs to ease up on the RTV. It's all over the piston. That can't be good for any thing

 

Hey Mike, I have a bore gauge on order.  Once I get proper measurements, then I'll know what I'm dealing with.

Whats with all that RTV??  That was my thought too.  It was put down on an oily surface so it didn't bond to anything.  

What parts dealer do you like to get your parts from?  

Thanks for the feed back.  

?Cheers

[Mike Anhalt 1,709]

10 hours ago, Roger Hudnut said:

Hey Mike, I have a bore gauge on order.  Once I get proper measurements, then I'll know what I'm dealing with.

Whats with all that RTV??  That was my thought too.  It was put down on an oily surface so it didn't bond to anything.  

What parts dealer do you like to get your parts from?  

Thanks for the feed back.  

?Cheers

I like to use the permatex spray copper for head and exhaust gaskets. It makes for a clean install but be sure to have the head surfaced so it’s actually flat. 

Part dealers can be tricky. It will more often than not come down to who has what you want in stock. For your piston parts, weisco sells the rings, it’s a common piston so no problem there. For everything else either Scooter-speed, scooters o pacific or Jet200. Who ever you buy from do your homework on them, there is a shop review page in the forum. 

 

 

[Roger Hudnut 13]

13 hours ago, Mike Anhalt said:

I like to use the permatex spray copper for head and exhaust gaskets. It makes for a clean install but be sure to have the head surfaced so it’s actually flat. 

Part dealers can be tricky. It will more often than not come down to who has what you want in stock. For your piston parts, weisco sells the rings, it’s a common piston so no problem there. For everything else either Scooter-speed, scooters o pacific or Jet200. Who ever you buy from do your homework on them, there is a shop review page in the forum. 

 

 

Thanks Mike, I'll check out the Forums review page.

Cheers.

[Roger Hudnut 13]

UPDATE:

A friend of mine lent me his snap gauges.  So I didnt have to wait for the gauges I have on order.

I measured the cylinder in many different places at 90 degrees.  I pushed a piston ring down with the piston to make a square ledge to perch the snap gauge on.  I was suprised at how square the cylinder is.  

The bore averages out to 64.01mm.  

I also measured the piston again at the 20mm from the bottom.  

The piston averages out to 63.59mm

IMG_20180927_191201744 by R H, on Flickr

IMG_20180927_192412837 by R H, on Flickr

I also measured the piston ring gap.  .45mm

IMG_20180925_192935668 by R H, on Flickr

And the piston gap to cylinder.  .23mm was the thickest gauge I could fit.  The book said that when I pull the gauge back out the piston should slide up with the gauge a bit.  I never got any gauge to pull the piston upward when removing it.

IMG_20180925_192104129_HDR by R H, on Flickr

Cheers. ? Pints up!

[Roger Hudnut 13]

How do I measure the connecting rod?  Any suggestions on the best technique?

IMG_20180916_115936700 by R H, on Flickr

Do I measure center hole to center hole?  

I was assuming that the crank was stock 58 x 107mm but Dirty Hands Lopez noted that my barrel has not been cut.  So this leads me to believe that my connecting rod and crank might be non-stock too.

So, any suggestions, please feel free to share your tips.

Thank you in advance.

Pints up! ?

[charliefentonsboy 65]

Conrod centre to centre - first photo looked like a 107mm, this now looks like it could be 110mm, but accurate measuring will confirm. 190 conversions have also use the longer TV conrods @ 116mm, although the base of the cylinder looks to have been machined, so unlikely to be one of those. Its tough to tell if the top of the cylinder has been machined from the photos posted.

Crank looks to be standard 58mm, if you post a photo of the other side of the rod, showing any manufacturers marks it may help, and also the flywheel taper on the other side of the crank, that may also help identifying it. The balance holes are generally in LI/SX/TV cranks, although italian GP150 also had them.

The Spanners Manual (#3 just published) would be a great reference guide for you.

[dirtyhandslopez 605]

 A true .003 clearance is going to give a ring gap of  .009423...Pi theory. .009423... ring gap is what you want, or .0010 if you want to get all technical?  

It'll prolly run as it's honed, with new rings , but she's going to rattle. Ring's aren't going to seal 100%, barrel is scored.  But it will run.

 

 

 

 

[Roger Hudnut 13]

On 9/28/2018 at 6:59 AM, charliefentonsboy said:

Conrod centre to centre - first photo looked like a 107mm, this now looks like it could be 110mm, but accurate measuring will confirm. 190 conversions have also use the longer TV conrods @ 116mm, although the base of the cylinder looks to have been machined, so unlikely to be one of those. Its tough to tell if the top of the cylinder has been machined from the photos posted.

Crank looks to be standard 58mm, if you post a photo of the other side of the rod, showing any manufacturers marks it may help, and also the flywheel taper on the other side of the crank, that may also help identifying it. The balance holes are generally in LI/SX/TV cranks, although italian GP150 also had them.

The Spanners Manual (#3 just published) would be a great reference guide for you.

Thank you.  I'll post better photos of the barrel, con rod and crank.