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Roger Hudnut

Kick It!! My LI125 project

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1 hour ago, dirtyhandslopez said:

 A true .003 clearance is going to give a ring gap of  .009423...Pi theory. .009423... ring gap is what you want, or .0010 if you want to get all technical?  

It'll prolly run as it's honed, with new rings , but she's going to rattle. Ring's aren't going to seal 100%, barrel is scored.  But it will run.

 

 

 

 

I'm not following you on this due to a lack of experience and knowledge on my part.  

Is there a thread or sight that I can visit which will help me understand?

I measured my ring gap, as seen in the photos above.  It looks like they are at .018" or .45mm.  Your message does not mention INCHES or MM, but I'm assuming it is Inches.

You're saying that .0010" is ideal.  So If mine is at .018 then I'm way to far out.  When I buy a new piston and rings I'll be stuck with the rings they provide, right?  What if those rings are too widely gaped too?  Can I get larger dia. rings?  And if so, how do I know what their resting size is VS their compressed (into the cylinder) size will be?

Sorry for my ignorance.  This is how I learn.  Much Appreciated.

Cheers ?

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UPDATE: 

Here are some photos of the barrel and the crankshaft / connecting rod.  Please let me know if you think the barrel is normal length or cut down.  and please let me know if you think my connecting rod is actually 107mm.

44366770604_48a5335a84_c.jpgIMG_20181003_184320744 by R H, on Flickr

43273827610_b4da0e6e47_c.jpgIMG_20181003_184330011 by R H, on Flickr

44366768834_4bc0b5c698_c.jpgIMG_20181003_184341247 by R H, on Flickr

43273826270_63f8dc6bd9_c.jpgIMG_20181003_184407528 by R H, on Flickr

44366767114_ed4b58127d_c.jpgIMG_20181003_184416894 by R H, on Flickr

If there are other angles or sides of the barrel that you need to see, please let me know.  I have no clue what they would have cut or how they would have cut it.  Thank you.

 

45038710762_e8120865fb_c.jpgIMG_20181003_184541970 by R H, on Flickr

44366764924_e529cc6b26_c.jpgIMG_20181003_184549485 by R H, on Flickr

43273822740_ea3f2caa27_c.jpgIMG_20181003_184611173 by R H, on Flickr

I did not find any writing on either end of the crankshaft.

 

44366761744_de49043a1f_c.jpgIMG_20181003_184858022 by R H, on Flickr

31213911098_b15d8d03c2_c.jpgIMG_20181003_184910199 by R H, on Flickr

45087208631_b8fdbfb2a2_c.jpgIMG_20181003_184914217 by R H, on Flickr

I measured from the center of each of the holes on the connecting rod.  It reads 107mm.  But I was under the impression that if my barrel is uncut then my connecting rod must be longer than stock.

If this barrel is a WCLW 190cc.  Then I would need longer than stock connecting rod.  I believe that 107mm is the stock length connecting rod.

 

If there are any other photos that will help identify what I have, please let me know.  

I'm at the point where Id like to begin purchasing parts, but I dont want to just shoot from the hip.  Your assistance, expertise and history with these machines is what I'm looking for. 

Cheers.

 

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Correct, you have a shortened cylinder with a stock LI/SX taper crank (58/107). It was super common in the 80's-90's but not so much now with the advent of alloy kits and all the good cast iron cylinders drying up.

 

Technically speaking it's a Suzuki 190 build. It uses a Suzuki (or equivalent) 64mm piston and the cylinder is "topped and tailed" to work with it.

 

 

 

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If you purchase a replacement TS185 piston, make sure it’s the later ‘ER’ type (such as 12110-29900) unless you like relocating piston ring pegs (I speak from experience). 

Its been noted above, and too late now, but my preferred method for this conversion is to use either an RD400 (115mm) or a TV175 (116mm) con-rod as it eliminates the need to machine the barrel, not to mention the benefits of a longer con-rod.

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On 10/4/2018 at 9:43 AM, Mike Anhalt said:

Correct, you have a shortened cylinder with a stock LI/SX taper crank (58/107). It was super common in the 80's-90's but not so much now with the advent of alloy kits and all the good cast iron cylinders drying up.

 

Technically speaking it's a Suzuki 190 build. It uses a Suzuki (or equivalent) 64mm piston and the cylinder is "topped and tailed" to work with it.

 

 

 

OK, Mike, thank you for confirming this for me.

Can you tell me where they actually cut this cylinder?  I dont know what a stock one looks like, so to my eye, this thing looks normal to me.

Cheers ?

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On 10/5/2018 at 7:41 AM, vegansydney said:

If you purchase a replacement TS185 piston, make sure it’s the later ‘ER’ type (such as 12110-29900) unless you like relocating piston ring pegs (I speak from experience). 

Its been noted above, and too late now, but my preferred method for this conversion is to use either an RD400 (115mm) or a TV175 (116mm) con-rod as it eliminates the need to machine the barrel, not to mention the benefits of a longer con-rod.

Thanks VeganSydney,

I'll look for the ER type.

Perhaps, at a later date, I'll replace this cylinder completely.  When I do that I'll do the modern method and go with a longer con-rod set up.  You'd better believe that i'm jotting all of this data in my future play book.  Thanks again.

Cheers ?

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Sorry I'm late! I didn't know we were talking about piston conversions!! Ha. I still do a bunch of iron barrel 186cc tunes. I prefer not to shorten the cylinders these days, but its still a good option if you want to avoid the cost of a crank rebuild. That's definitely a 107 mazzuchelli rod rebuild, Wiseco Ts185 piston (they don't differentiate an ER type), and shortened barrel. Wiseco rings tend to be a larger gap than one might expect, so anything less than 0.020" out of the box is ok, although 0.010" is optimal. 

The only way to measure bore clearance is with a proper bore gauge. I measure barrels for free (plus shipping of course) and check con rod/big end wear for free as well,  but regardless, if you need a new piston, that's an older wiseco number. The new number is 176M06400. If you suspect you need a rebore, you could use a local bore/machine shop...then buy a 176M06450 and have them bore it to 0.0035", no less! Although for this one you also need to shorten the piston skirt. The generally accepted amount is to take 8mm from the skirt, although I think I've gone as little as 6.5mm to keep intake timing more reasonable (If I'm not doing it, tell them 7mm). I sell them for $110 standard, shortened I could do $125. 

Also, that barrel isn't ported much, if at all. These can be great kits for short money if set up well. The head/combustion chamber should be checked too, to make sure it's not too high of a compression ratio...I've made that mistake myself in the past! It comes from recutting at too shallow of an angle and not opening up the chamber to compensate. 

 

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On 10/7/2018 at 8:27 AM, Mike Anhalt said:

The top and bottom have been turned down.

 

Here’s a pretty good photo of a stock cylinder. Compare that to yours and you’ll see where it’s been cut  

 

http://www.scooterrestorations.com/lambretta/gp150-cylinder-57.00mm-sil/

Gotcha.  Thanks for the link.  I can see what was done now.  :D

Cheers. ?

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On 10/8/2018 at 6:46 PM, Solerunner1 said:

Sorry I'm late! I didn't know we were talking about piston conversions!! Ha. I still do a bunch of iron barrel 186cc tunes. I prefer not to shorten the cylinders these days, but its still a good option if you want to avoid the cost of a crank rebuild. That's definitely a 107 mazzuchelli rod rebuild, Wiseco Ts185 piston (they don't differentiate an ER type), and shortened barrel. Wiseco rings tend to be a larger gap than one might expect, so anything less than 0.020" out of the box is ok, although 0.010" is optimal. 

The only way to measure bore clearance is with a proper bore gauge. I measure barrels for free (plus shipping of course) and check con rod/big end wear for free as well,  but regardless, if you need a new piston, that's an older wiseco number. The new number is 176M06400. If you suspect you need a rebore, you could use a local bore/machine shop...then buy a 176M06450 and have them bore it to 0.0035", no less! Although for this one you also need to shorten the piston skirt. The generally accepted amount is to take 8mm from the skirt, although I think I've gone as little as 6.5mm to keep intake timing more reasonable (If I'm not doing it, tell them 7mm). I sell them for $110 standard, shortened I could do $125. 

Also, that barrel isn't ported much, if at all. These can be great kits for short money if set up well. The head/combustion chamber should be checked too, to make sure it's not too high of a compression ratio...I've made that mistake myself in the past! It comes from recutting at too shallow of an angle and not opening up the chamber to compensate. 

 

Hey Solerunner1.  Thanks for your info.  I've updated my part number on the piston.  Thanks for the con rod info & ring gap too.  I might take you up on your services in a later build.  

Do you have any pics or links to examples of good ported heads?

Thanks for your info.  Its all seeping into my mind slowly.  

Cheers ?

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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you all.  

Santa arrived a bit early this year.  Luckly I had some highly qualified assistance to help me write my letter to Santa.  I spoke to our local area scooter parts supplier, Patrick of PTown Scooters.  I asked him to help me piece together a list of parts for my motor build.  Also, I trusted Patrick to order these parts for me.  His network of trusted suppliers gave me peace of mind that my order would arrive and contain quality parts.  The sleigh arrived a few weeks ago.  Patrick is a really cool guy and his customer service is second to none.  I really want to thank him for his help and guidance. 

I've been so busy lately, I've barely had time to even look at these parts.   But I took pics of them last night, just to share here on LCUSA.

- Mugello 200 cylinder kit
- GP Crankshaft 58x107
- LTH reed intake manifold
- Bearing kit
- Gaskets
- 46 tooth uprated crown wheel
- 5 plate competition grade clutch kit
- 16 tooth front sprocket
- 81 link chain
- Uprated chain tensioner
- Varitronic ignition
- 30mm Dellorto Carburetor
- High flow air bellows/pod filter combo

I wish everyone a happy holiday season.  Talk with you in 2019!  Love and Peace for all.

45509919685_30572a8736_c.jpgIMG_20181220_193920 by R H, on Flickr

45509918495_f13e12baeb_c.jpgIMG_20181220_194014 by R H, on Flickr

45509916935_73f256a9a8_c.jpgIMG_20181220_194034 by R H, on Flickr

46371951612_f478ec859c_c.jpgIMG_20181220_194052 by R H, on Flickr

45509915585_1bca6f1ece_c.jpgIMG_20181220_194120 by R H, on Flickr

46371950322_54b613e15f_c.jpgIMG_20181220_194220 by R H, on Flickr

45509914365_59c4ca22cd_c.jpgIMG_20181220_194237 by R H, on Flickr

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Here are some other pics of other stuff from the other.

45699530254_8413736bcc_c.jpgIMG_20181205_064039932 by R H, on Flickr

31482887457_4550d061c3_c.jpgIMG_20181220_193746 by R H, on Flickr

32550597718_14f7f1aa29_c.jpgIMG_20181220_193701 by R H, on Flickr

31482888167_15e5d7d867_c.jpgIMG_20181220_193632 by R H, on Flickr

32550598688_881c3465fb_c.jpgIMG_20181220_193624 by R H, on Flickr

44605761320_c1cbd30264_c.jpgIMG_20181220_193608 by R H, on Flickr

31482888897_7bdf901f8b_c.jpgIMG_20181220_193616 by R H, on Flickr

45509924565_71df1ce1c3_c.jpgIMG_20181220_193103 by R H, on Flickr

45509925185_b968020434_c.jpgIMG_20181220_193015 by R H, on Flickr

45509926585_f2b396c4d2_c.jpgIMG_20181220_192852 by R H, on Flickr

31482896227_5e9ece0700_c.jpgIMG_20181220_192820 by R H, on Flickr

45509927285_0b6190917c_c.jpgIMG_20181220_192757 by R H, on Flickr

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you will love the Mugello with reed set up. Hopefully will get to ride with you soon!

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