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darbsclt

Charlotte, NC - Series 1

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Hi Everyone...

 

I've never been much of a "blogger," but seeing as I'll be leaning on my fellow LCU members a lot in the up coming months... I thought I'd start a thread about my scoot and it's progress.

 

Two caveats:

- I'm new to all of this...

- I'll probably say something stupid along the way...

 

Feel free to coach, advise and steer me in the right direction - that's what I'm humbly looking for.  

 

About the Scooter...

- '59 Series 1 Li 125

- Supposedly, the head, piston and cylinder have been increased to 175cc

- Electrics upgraded to 12v (I'm not sure what components were used... but the coil is "Watyong")

 

The bike was said to be restored 15+ years ago.  Taking stock of the components (Chinese carb, Chinese Coil, Viet(?) stand)... the restoration was done on the cheap.  I do believe that the restoration was done in the US, however, as most of the original parts were included with the sale.

 

My Goals

- Ultimately, I'd like to restore her with new paint and updated (correct) components.  I'd like reliable (read bulletproof) mechanicals and electrics.  I don't need the fastest scooter out there... but I do want one that will accelerate and keep up with traffic at 50 - 55 mph.

 

Timeline

Immediately...

- Get the scoot running happily and reliably.

- Ride it actively until late October/November

 

Winter...

- Tear her down and restore her properly.

 

Spring...

- Bring her out in Late March/April finished.

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

1st projects... (future posts)

- Replace Carb, Fuel tap, Center Stand

- Get her running happily

- Make sure brakes, gearbox are operating correctly/safely

 

 

20150905_125714.jpg?v=0&p=8&x=1&a=BXHpVK

 

Additional pictures can be found HERE

 

 

 

 

 

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My first dilemma...

 

Carbs...

So I'm in the market for a new carb and the choices are dizzying! Just to recap above... I have an S1 125 with a 175 head. It had a Chinese Mikuni copy on it along with an accompanying manifold. I'm not that interested in 'tuning' or high performance. I just want good, solid performance with bulletproof reliability and 'set & forget' operation.

I'm narrowing down my new carb options to the following...

- I can go with an original Dellorto sh1/20mm at a fair price from a local member.
(I'd still need to find a manifold, however... or an adapter to fit the Dellorto to a Mikuni-type inlet - if one exists)
- I could go with a brand new PBGH 20mm and accompanying manifold.
- I could go with an authentic Mikuni 20mm using the existing manifold.

Can anyone offer any thoughts/insights?
Is there a better option that I'm not considering?

Cheers!

Charlie

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You could also go with a new scootopia sh2/22. You'd still need a manifold for it but it's a nice carb.

I would recommend the standard sh1/20 or the scootopia 2/22 just from an ease of setup perspective. They are not as tunable as a modern carb but they are easy to use and will work really well for your application.

No such manifold to convert to a mikuni type of flange mount exists so you'll be switching that odd ball put regardless. I'm sure you can find a used original manifold pretty easily here. The 1/20 uses any oem series 3 manifold from 125-175cc while the 2/22 uses a gp/jetex manifold from the same cc range.

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You could also go with a new scootopia sh2/22. You'd still need a manifold for it but it's a nice carb.

 

Thanks!... I'll look Scootopia some more, but they are showing "out of stock" on the website.  

I've sent them a note to see what's up.

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.  

I figured I'd call them today.

 

Cheers!

 

For sure call them. They answer the phone and wont rush you to get off. An encyclopedia of lambretta information between the two of them.

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For sure call them. They answer the phone and wont rush you to get off. An encyclopedia of lambretta information between the two of them.

 

Well I talked to Gene... what a nice guy and outfit!  

 

He's going to hold my order in-house until he can check "in the back" for a sh1/20 manifold.

 

As for the Scootopia sh2/22... it seems they have been snatched up over in the UK as soon as they are produced.  Gene is expecting a shipment in the next month or so... but he also thinks that the sh2/22 might be a little too much for my engine given that we don't really know what modifications were made to the head/cylinder.

 

I think the plan will be to try and go the sh1/20 route (providing I can find a manifold)... to get her running and riding.  

 

Gene was talking about a new, affordable 185 kit from Scootopia - due early next year.  Since I'm not sure what is underneath the engine modifications made to my series 1, I thought that I might look in to that kit and a sh2/22 later on.  Gene seems to think that this would be a good long-term solution for my goal. 

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Here's a tip on your pictures.  

 

-Right click and select "copy image url"

 

-Select the little tree picture icon on the message toolbar

 

howto.PNG

-Paste the url that you copied into the box that appears and select ok.

 

Capture3.PNG

 

And that is it.  You are now posting pictures on the forum.

 

 

IMG_0038.jpg?v=0&p=8&x=1&a=BbCZM5iQpgv2A

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Super!  That helps a lot!

 

Good! now get shot of that viet stand and the V3$p@ stand feet in that picture. :lol:

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Good! now get shot of that viet stand and the V3$p@ stand feet in that picture. :lol:

 

Ha!... I deserved that, I guess  -_-

 

A new stand... feet and assorted goodies arrives today from Scooter Speed (whew!).

 

Also, Gene at SO got me sorted with a sh1/20 intake manifold... so the carb should be installed and running soon :D .

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Well... after moving along pretty well with replacing the center stand and add/replacing a few other bits, I ran into my first dilemma.

 

I took off the old intake manifold, in order to install one from a TV175 that can accommodate a 20mm Dellorto sh1/20 Carb.  In doing so, this is what I found... HERE (sorry, for some reason I lost the ability to pull the URL for a individual picture)

 

As you can see... while the gasket (and by extension the manifold) DO line up with the studs... it doesn't line up with the intake port in the cylinder.  Unless, I'm missing something... I'm looking at a bigger job then just adding a new carb/intake manifold.  (Note: I removed one of the intake studs in order to have enough clearance between the cylinder and bike frame to remove the manifold).

 

Besides... if someone installed an intake manifold/gasket like this - what does it say about the rest of the cylinder/head/piston???

 

Thoughts??

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The gasket was installed upside down and looks like a repo. I honestly can say I haven't seen that one before (yes on the exhaust gasket no on the intake). 

 

Undoing someone else's work is all part of the process. I do it all the time.

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The gasket was installed upside down and looks like a repo.

 

 

Thanks Mike... that's what I thought originally also.  In truth, however, the gasket and the manifold line up pretty well.  

Neither line up with the cylinder inlet, however.  I can only guess that the cylinder isn't correct for a Lambretta.

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It's the correct cylinder, you are up-grading to a later manifold and carb. You 90% of the time trim gaskets to get a perfect fit anyway its just in this case you may have to manipulate the port and manifold a little, Don't try to get it too perfect, a little turbulence when dealing with a fuel air mix helps to keep it that way, mixed.

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It's the correct cylinder, you are up-grading to a later manifold and carb. You 90% of the time trim gaskets to get a perfect fit anyway its just in this case you may have to manipulate the port and manifold a little, Don't try to get it too perfect, a little turbulence when dealing with a fuel air mix helps to keep it that way, mixed.

 

Really?... the mis-match is like 3/8"... that seems like a lot of turbulence.

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Really?... the mis-match is like 3/8"... that seems like a lot of turbulence.

 

 

It's a 175cc conversion kit so it's probably an over bored Indian 125 cylinder. That would explain the "it's close enough" intake port.

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It's a 175cc conversion kit so it's probably an over bored Indian 125 cylinder.

 

So how should I handle this??

- Just trim a new gasket to fit (kinda)... and go with it?  (~1/3 of the intake port is blocked due to being mis-matched with the manifold)

- Tear it down and build it up right with a new cylinder kit?

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This is where advise on-line can be misleading or given from misinterpreted info, but all with the best of intentions. Before doing work on the top end or replacing, you'll have to decide if it is worth it first. For example, has the head been machined to match the 175 bore, what was the cylinder before the oversize and is it up to sustaining the up-grade, port timings, quality of piston, Squish, compression ratio's and so on. Bigger carb and bigger capacity, but do you have a better exhaust to allow the increased intake get out? gearbox, is it standard, a 125 gearbox with a good 175 top end will pull a train up the hills of San Francisco but top out on a freeway at 50 ish mph screaming it's head off. I've said it before on here, if you are a newbie to 2 strokes and especially the Lambretta get some experienced help locally so that the job in question can be inspected in person, no these aren't rocket science, but from experience I can tell you that rocket science does sometimes look to be an easier option.

 

If you were a customer looking for a cheap easy option and assuming that everything from the top end down is good, I would recommend ordering from Scooter Restorations a genuine SIL GP 150 barrel piston and head, a Jetex carb and manifold for a GP 150,  SIL GP complete exhaust, and the required gaskets. There are a myriad of other options going up in cost and complexity, but once you open that can of worms good luck getting the lid back on and your wallet closed!

 

All of the above is my opinion not gospel, read or ignore, up to you, I'm going for a ride.

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Option c -- blend the ports together.

I've been watching this whole thread with interest. I have an LI125 S1 and an SIL 175 kit on my shelf.

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Option c -- blend the ports together.

I've been watching this whole thread with interest. I have an LI125 S1 and an SIL 175 kit on my shelf.

 

If it's a good kit, you might want to consider using a GP 200 sprocket set-up on the 125 gearbox, My Wife used to run that on her Casa 185 until I popped in a Cyclone 5. That 125 first is short so will get anything moving off the line, but that jump from 3rd to 4th can be painful depending on rider size and engine torque. I say this as I may be a tad heavier than your average Lammy rider and so I notice these things!

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This is where advise on-line can be misleading or given from misinterpreted info, but all with the best of intentions. Before doing work on the top end or replacing, you'll have to decide if it is worth it first. For example, has the head been machined to match the 175 bore, what was the cylinder before the oversize and is it up to sustaining the up-grade, port timings, quality of piston, Squish, compression ratio's and so on. Bigger carb and bigger capacity, but do you have a better exhaust to allow the increased intake get out? gearbox, is it standard, a 125 gearbox with a good 175 top end will pull a train up the hills of San Francisco but top out on a freeway at 50 ish mph screaming it's head off. I've said it before on here, if you are a newbie to 2 strokes and especially the Lambretta get some experienced help locally so that the job in question can be inspected in person, no these aren't rocket science, but from experience I can tell you that rocket science does sometimes look to be an easier option.

 

If you were a customer looking for a cheap easy option and assuming that everything from the top end down is good, I would recommend ordering from Scooter Restorations a genuine SIL GP 150 barrel piston and head, a Jetex carb and manifold for a GP 150,  SIL GP complete exhaust, and the required gaskets. There are a myriad of other options going up in cost and complexity, but once you open that can of worms good luck getting the lid back on and your wallet closed!

 

All of the above is my opinion not gospel, read or ignore, up to you, I'm going for a ride.

 

 

Thanks Skippy... reading you lay this out helps a lot.

 

Everything about this lump is a mystery to me.  Given the quality standard of some modified components, however (Chinese carb & electrics, ill-matching manifold), red flags are beginning to wave.  

 

I'm not excited about spending $$ on stop-gap measures (new carb/manifold etc, etc.) to get her running only to tear her apart later, upgrading to other components.  I'd rather just take care of it right the first time.  As you suggested, I'm also a little concerned about the long term usefulness of the 125 gearing.

 

I guess my next step will be to bribe/beg a local member to take another look at it, and go from there.

 

Cheers!

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I wanted to understand the extent to which the inlet and manifold mis-matched... so I took a piece of solder and 'traced' the outline of the inlet/studs.  I then held that template against my new 175 - 20mm manifold and THIS is what I came up with.  I'd guess that 40% of the opening is blocked.  Not only that... the inlet is very close to the edge of the manifold base.

 

I also posted a picture of the head at the same link.  Clearly it's a 175cc head... but I don't understand much more than that in the stamping.

 

My local member/expert feels that the head is an SIL and that the cylinder matches up with a Jetex manifold/carb.  

 

Does that make sense?

 

I'm not really sure what direction to go in.  I'm not really comfortable slapping my current manifold/Dellorto carb on there - it would probably work, but not well.

 

- I could try to match a different (Jetex?) manifold/carb to this cylinder

- I could try to match a 'new' cylinder to a Dellorto sh 1/20 carb and manifold

- I could go with a whole new "matched" kit.

 

I'm open to suggestions...

 

Keep in mind, I'm not really an engine guy.  I don't have the experience or the tools needed to crack one open & put it back together.  In other words, I'd be at the mercy of others if the cylinder/crank needed disassembly.

 

Cheers!

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